We are sometimes asked this question….“Why don’t you have an escrow system at Voice123?”
Voice123 chose to not develop an escrow system nearly 5 years ago. The fact is you can spend all day reading horror stories online, but it does not mean what you are reading always happens. So, why did we never use an escrow system with all this social media pressure to do so?
Simply put:
- Most voice talent we surveyed AND met in person did not want it!
- It was explained to us, “Please don’t add something I will have to pay for with money I earn! I can handle my own business. Thanks.”
Five years later, and smarter, here are some statistics behind “no escrow”:
- Over 90,000 private messages
- Over 100,000 posted voice over jobs
- Just over 300 voice seekers removed from Voice123 for non-payment (LESS THAN 1%)
- Average price for non-paying jobs: Under $50 USD
- The majority of non-payment cases involved jobs Voice123 staff never saw. We don’t control who contacts you on Voice123.
- The most common situation we saw when non-payments took place stemmed from talent accepting work when they knew in their gut it was a bad idea, and also did not confirm how payment would be made in an email, but delivered the file anyway.
Is escrow convenient? Yes, but it is a service and you pay for it. Seriously, no one needs it to be “secure”. Offline, you never needed escrow to decide what was safe to audition for and online your street-smarts, Google searches, and random web tools will serve you for security.
Some more facts about Voice123 to add to the reasons why we do not do it:
- Privacy is a thing of the past. Scary, but true. You can find out anything about anyone.
- There are hundreds of web tools out there to find out, if a client is one you wish to work with, or if you should be safe and ask for payment upfront.
More reasons…the Voice123 staff located in the US and Latin America:
- David Lecinski – Voice talent
- Tara Tyler – Voice talent
- Felecia Angelle - Voice talent
- Michelle Rojas – Voice talent
- Tara Kray – Voice talent
- Carmen Tejeda – Voice123 employee for six years
- Juan Suescún – Voice123 employee for six years
- Tania Zapata – Voice talent/co-founder
- Steven Lowell – Voice talent.
Aside from years of industry experience, we all have a vast business experience that is worthy of a book from up and coming voice talent to business owners, theatre actors, moms, dads, radio station staff, customer service managers, teachers, and former call center reps. Personally, my job before Voice123 involved fraud investigation and recovery. I help with non-payment issues, now, but I have only dealt with 2 this year. The staff right now is the most tech/business/street-smart/voice industry savvy, than ever before. For years, Voice123 stood firm in the belief that “voice talent do not want escrow, do not need it, and to have it would be an added expense talent do not need.”
In the midst of this reassuring…a concern or two:
The biggest concern in 2012 I have is that the tendency to assume the worst when someone is slow to respond via email about payment, or this strange belief that voice talent are helpless when working online, still exists. “Profit from fear” business tactics are meant for insurance companies; not voice talent. I have witnessed accusations lead to talent getting paid, and unintentionally insulting a client out of future work. If you are afraid something will happen to you, “it is cheaper to learn how to protect yourself than to pay others to promise you security or a faster payment method”. This is what you told Voice123, and that is why we never used escrow.
Stay smart and stay skeptical! If you like escrow or not, please share why!
About the author
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Steven is the Community Manager of Voice123 |
lanceblair
August 3, 2012
There is no reasonable excuse for an escrow system, and I applaud Voice123 for never using one. Not being paid is simply a risk that freelancers must accept and for which they must be prepared. Develop good communication and relationships with the people you are working for and they will pay…even if it is very late. I have never not been paid by any voiceseekers at Voice123. It’s also nice how many late-paying customers I’ve worked with in general have become long-term repeat clients thanks to how we both kept respectful communication open. In fact, I’ve only not been paid three times in the past decade, and they were all small jobs that didn’t affect my bottom line. Two were for production houses that quickly went out of business that same year, and a third time was for a start-up that belly-flopped. It’s not always because a client is trying to cheat or swindle you that you aren’t paid; we have to keep in mind that all our clients are trying to run a business too. Speaking of which, asking for a membership fee and then charging escrow is no way to run a business, and voice talent and seekers are making their voices heard on that issue. Thank you Steve for explaining Voice123′s stand on this issue which regrettably shouldn’t be an issue at all…it should have never happened.
Paul Strikwerda
August 3, 2012
To some, promoting an escrow system seems like double dipping. First you make the talent pay a yearly membership fee. Then you take an additional x percent for holding on to their money. I’m glad voice123 is staying out of it.
A few years ago I had a money-related issue with a client. The voice123 team went out of their way to resolve it and that’s something I will always remember. It’s good to know that you have my back!
Rick Lance
August 3, 2012
I couldn’t agree more with Lance and Paul on this issue!
I’ve not seen the value as a talent for the escrow system. Regardless of the explanations I’ve received about how it protects us. Rather it’s just an additional income source for the website/service. They tell me they are protecting us and them from theft by creating that payment delay that exits inherently with the escrow system. I can take care of my own payment in the professional manner I always have.
JCDunn
August 4, 2012
I would prefer one or the other. I wouldn’t give a talent agency a slice of my earnings AND pay to be represented. I feel the same about “escrow”. Most of my business is done outside of voice-over service sites and I have no problem setting terms/conditions and collecting. Yes, there is an occasional client who takes their time sending payment but it’s not a recurring issue.
When using escrow, I indicate my rate for the gig and then add a line with the escrow amount should they prefer to use the escrow payment system. I leave it up to the client how they want to proceed.
Dave Hickman
August 5, 2012
Hi, it looks like I’m going to be the first to speak up in favour of the escrow system!
While I understand your arguments, Steven, I think it might be helpful to put the other point of view.
It’s not always easy to research the voice seeker on Voice123 because very often their identity is hidden. If I do happen to get a name, I can spend time searching the internet for information about them but, when I get back to the audition, I find that 20 talents have got in before me.
The escrow system takes away the suspicion and the scepticism – the talent can concentrate on delivering a great read knowing that the seeker is legitimate and able to pay.
Dave
Steven Lowell
August 6, 2012
Hi Dave,
We get both points of view equally. I couldnt write this without examining both sides first. Yet, think about what you are saying…You are suspicious of someone you do not know, so you are willing to pay someone you do not know to protect you with a service they offer. Now, if that sounds odd (because people basically know who we are by now), you have to understand what is taking place in the bigger picture:
- Most voice talent on Voice123 are skeptical.
- They wish to not give money away for things they can handle on their own.
- We put info out there to help you see “who you should be suspicious about”. For example, you know when a person wants to hide his/her name, when they joined the site, and how much they listen. If they do something you disagree with, why would you audition anyway? You teach people who should post jobs by what you audition for on Voice123. Teach them what is acceptable to you.
- To impose a service on the entire community because of fear of the 0.16% of over 100,000 jobs posted by 65,000+ voice seekers…is highly unfair to the majority of voice talent who look at jobs online and think, “Yeah, that’s a waste of time.”
- Given the money lost in such non-payment matters averages so low, why impose this on good people?
- Why not offer it? When a service is developed for a website, it has to be paid for by something. Why spend time and money to develop something almost no one wants? Why develop a solution to a problem that would best be solved by simply not auditioning for certain work?
One thing about “security”…someone always pays for it at some point. It is a double-edged sword. I use the comparison of ‘insurance’ because over the cost of a year, you will pay for a service you never needed, if you knew who to avoid. We show so much information about the person posting the job that should take less than a minute to figure out, if it is worth it. One minute on each job vs. 10% commission on every job you book, while giving certain job posters who pay so little the security to post work for you to audition for. An analogy for you….
A self-defense course is cheaper than paying for a security guard, or simply knowing what neighborhoods to stay away from.
Some of this explanation may seem extensive and annoying, but sometimes blog posts and public sentiment over “what could happen” lead many to believe “we need protecting”. The bigger picture always involves those who dont publicly comment. I will give you this…its a service you pay for that make getting paid “easier”. But there are way too many who tell us, “Its easier when I do it, and its free.”
Over the course of a year….How much is 10% commission for jobs booked worth vs. the cost of avoiding low paying suspicious jobs most never wanted anyway?
You can see there is always lots to think about, and the answer is never simple.
Dave Hickman
August 6, 2012
Thanks for replying. I’ll give it some thought….
Kendra Hoffman
August 7, 2012
I prefer to work without escrow:
1) It keeps pricing simple – there is no choice between losing a piece of my fee or appearing to the client as though I’m padding my rate above what others have quoted. And if a client wishes to work with me again directly, there is no confusion over the “real” rate.
2) There is no additional delay in payment. When the client pays me, the payment goes through (PayPal, etc.) or shows up a few days later in the mail (check), rather than being held until the funds are released by a third party.
3) An escrow service does not make me feel safer, nor do I feel that without it, clients will be more inclined to avoid payment.
4) The bulk of my clients prefer to work directly with me, with no additional hurdles. And I want to keep my clients happy!
Howard Byrne
August 7, 2012
I agree with all of Kendra’s points. I’ve only been scammed once. There wasn’t any indication the client would not pay after praising me for an excellent job and quick turnaround. But, it still happened. Let’s face it. Every client is under a deadline, so turnaround time is crucial. The price negotiation should have already taken place before the script is sent. There has to be an element of trust between the client and the talent. Plus, most of my clients pay by check anyway…not PayPal. So, the time it takes to get paid can take a little longer. That’s perfectly fine with me. I save PayPal fees!
Steve, your point is right on. It was a low paying job in the first place. I just chalked it up as a part of doing business. I would have lost far more money by paying fees (or having the client pay escrow fees) over the course of a year.
As Kendra said, the bulk of my clients prefer to work directly with me. Making them happy by keeping things simple keeps me happy with the work they offer.
Craig Burnett
August 7, 2012
I work with 97% of my clients on COD…even the clients I’ve had for years. I send them a low-rez demo, they pay via Paypal, and my proprietary system automatically sends them a link to the hirez. I never have to touch the transaction, and best of all I don’t have to wait for my money…and even better, the client doesn’t have to wait for the audio. Win, WIN!
V123 does it right!!
Debbie Kutch
August 7, 2012
Hi Steven… I am assuming you have been “listening” to the chatter on LinkedIn regarding the recently “enforced escrow” system from your competitor. Smart business move to post this article and I personally agree with your comments. I, for one, prefer to have a choice as to how I run my business. Thanks!
Kyle McCarley
August 7, 2012
I like to have escrow as an option. I would detest a site that had both a paid membership fee and required the use of an escrow system from which they take a profit. But I like having it there as a choice. It does make one feel a bit more secure, but more than that, it opens the doors for the site to track job completion and feedback between client and VO after the job’s completed, rather than exclusively during the audition process. It makes the client feel more secure, too. Honestly, were it up to me, I’d probably go without it 99% of the time, but if a client wants to use an escrow system for a job, I have no problems doing so. I like having choices, and an escrow system is one of them.
Dave Hickman
August 7, 2012
Looks like I’m in a minority of one!
Mike Short
August 7, 2012
Hi Steven, I’m new here. (My Demos are being worked up and I should have them in place in a couple weeks — I hope. ) But what I want to ask is; don’t we, the Voice Talents, hold the copyrights on our recordings until they are bought out by the Voice Seekers?
If they don’t pay, they don’t own — and cannot use — the recording.
Steven Lowell
August 7, 2012
Mike,
I doubt anyone who doesn’t pay you is going to have the nerve to come after you for copyright infringement.
You cant use auditions with company names as adverts for yourself because you are not creating original work. You are using a mash-up of promotional copy, promoting yourself, while using another company name with copy you did not create.
Regardless, chances are they wont find it unless you use text that mentions the company when labeling or tagging your work.
Tom Buck
August 7, 2012
I would certainly like the option of using an escrow system here. With the “other” major vo site, it is the client who pays the cost of using the system and many do, or you can request that they do. It works great and your check or electronic transfer via the site arrives after the client approves your work. This is the only good thing about that “other” site. They have much to learn from V123, otherwise!! I have been stiffed once here and, yes, it was for a small amount. But, amounts don’t matter to me; the principle does. It was the client’s first posting. V123 said it had checked out his website. Come to find out when I tried to collect it was not his site, and his phone number was to a home. Every time I called for the person, he was never available. Lesson learned: If I am not familiar with a client who is posting or if their identity is cloaked, my first instinct is to look to see how many jobs they’ve posted. My minimum to respond to a posting usually is 3-5 jobs. So far, so good.
Mike Short
August 7, 2012
Hi Steven, thanks for the comment. However, I think I expressed myself poorly.
If I accept a job from a client (after auditioning, acceptance, rate negotiation and payment method agreement) I’ll recieve the text of the material to be recorded. The client owns the rights to the text. Once I record the material I own the rights to the audio recording of that material. The client only gets the rights once he pays me. Until then, I own the recording. After payment the client owns it. Until I’m paid the client should not use the recording. This is (I believe) true under U.S. Copyright Law and the International, and Pan-American Copyright Conventions.
Under these laws and conventions I ought to have specific legal rights if payment is not made in a timely manner.
This is not likely to come up since according to your statistics less than .2% of the jobs were from clients who didn’t or couldn’t pay. And of course if the client is out-of-business I’ll have no luck collecting, but still…
jillmelancon
August 27, 2012
hi steven: first of all, i have never felt the need for an escrow system with voice123. every job i have gotten has paid me in full and within a reasonable amount of time. in fact, most of the jobs i’ve gotten here have actually paid me MORE than the original stated amount. to give some perspective, a got a gig through one of my (very reputable) agents six months ago that i *still* haven’t been paid for…and they don’t seem terribly concerned about it. i’ve never felt that attitude from voice123. and i appreciate not being forced to give you a percentage of my earnings on top of the member fee. thanks for all you do.
Rev Steve Barnett
August 29, 2012
Hi Steven, It has been quite a while since I was with V123. Cancer and surgery got in the way, but I’m back up on my horse, so to speak and would like to get going again. The first year I was with V123 I did rather well. The second year was a waste of money, and I could not afford the third year….’Still paying “gobs” of medical expenses over and above medicare.
Steven Lowell
August 29, 2012
mmm Completely understand.